Exegesis Volume 2 Issue #9 Aphrodette North -- Re: Exegesis Digest V2 #4 Neil Urquhart -- Re: Exegesis Digest V2 #7 Aphrodette North -- Re: Exegesis Digest V2 #8 skyweasel -- Re: Exegesis Digest V2 #7
Exegesis Digest Tue, 18 Mar 1997

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 09:44:41 PST
From: Aphrodette North
Subject: Re: Exegesis Digest V2 #4

Mary Downing !!

Really like your style !! No arguements from me - at least not at the moment !! :) :) :)

BRAVO!

Love to know your birth data !! :)

Posing a question to the group: "How many levels are there to consciousness ???" Even in my old little black book - i had criteria !!! :)

Smiles, Aphrodette

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 01:52:15 +0900
From: Neil Urquhart
Subject: Re: Exegesis Digest V2 #7

>From: DR GONZALO PENA TAMEZ

Hello, Dr G:)

>At the moment of conception...

I stand corrected! Well, serves me right for writing sbout things I don't know very much about (medical determination of conception) at 3 in the morning.

>your apparently freely willed decision to select this particular
>vehicle.

Are you saying, then, that there is no such thing as free-will?

>The soul, in its ignorance...

We'll have to agree to disagree on whether the soul is ignorant or not.

>I agree with you that we need not lose the sense of hierarchy in
>dealing with the multifarious additional factors that can be
>introduced into the chart analysis.  But I do not agree with you
>in holding that the conception chart is irrelevant.

Well, if you do not accept "irrelevant", how about "secondary in importance" and "lower down the hierarchy"?

>But about the chart of conception, I believe that soon we'll
>develop software to reliably find our conception charts with real
>precision. That is the true chart of our physical vehicle, and in
>it is possible to learn the time of death with greater ease than
>from the birth chart.

Jyotish astrologers seem to have little difficulty in determining the date and time of death from the natal chart. Perhaps it's Western astrology's methodology that is at fault.

>Well I wasn't sure whether it was base-ball, soccer, or
>soft-ball...But anyway, now I have dropped my bat.

You better pick it up. You never know when you might need it.

>In practical terms, you are right...[snip] experience has
>shown me that the hands are signified on the ecliptic in the arc
>from 0 to 5 Gemini Virgo and from 25 to 30 Gemini and Virgo, while
>the best key
>words to qualify the South Node of the Moon include "gone,
>dissapeared, lack of, absence of, missing" ...so the South Node
>just before 4 Virgo meant that the 4th finger, namely the
>index, was missing....but it had to be her husband's because it
>was in 7th and the Sun, ruler of her 7th was semisquaring there
>along with Mars that was square the Sun.  It was easy to know it
>had to be the right hand (Mars, Saturn, Sun) and not the left
>(Venus, Uranus), and so forth. The interesting point here is that
>her husband lost his finger before she met him.  Had she come to
>see me when she was single, I'd have told her she was predestined
>to marry a man missing his right index finger.  When I posted this
>story in the other list, a lady replied saying that she has her
>natal Saturn at 4 Virgo and her mother lost her finger; her
>father-in-law lost 4 fingers in front of her and she had to
>dispose of them, and recently her daughter lost her finger as
>well. 

Very interesting, especially to me as I have the South Node of the Moon at 2Vi46' (True Node) in the 7th (where the Sun is the ruler of the Seventh), conjunct Mars at 2Vi15' (it rules the 2nd), sq Nep at 28Sc ,tri Ven at 29Li and Jup at 3Sc. Merc 25Vi is also conjunct Plu at 26Vi, sxt Nep and tri Sat at 23Ta. So lots of connections with the hands - I have been told separately by several astrologers and palmists that I will become a healer with my hands. Am I destined to marry a woman minus her middle finger? (Please e-mail me if you would like my full birthdata.) No-one I know, except perhaps the local yakuza (Japanese gangsters), has lost any fingers.

BTW the Ebertin's list 26Ge as connected with the wrist, 27Ge with the fingers, 28Ge with the metacarpal (hand) bones and Maurice Wemyss lists 20Ge/Sag to 22 as connected with the wrists and 29and 30 Ge/Sag with the fingers (This info from A Handbook of Medical Astrology by Jane Ridder-Patrick (London: Arkana, 1990))

>I foresee we will see
>the end of life in this planet by the year 2013, when the
>Uranus/Pluto square that brought us World War 2 returns in
>heavens.

There have been many predictions of the end of the world. None have come to pass.

>>Please define "astropsychobabbling". I'm not sure what you mean.
>
>I call astropsychobabbler any practicioner who is unable to
>predict the future from the chart but nonetheless has come to
>master the lingo of astrology and blends it with psychological
>jargon to counsel his clients. The main characteristic of the
>astropsychobabbler is that he subscribes to the notion that
>astrology is basically a tool for spiritual growth and self
>knowledge as well as a symbolic language.  I have no more interest
>in astropsychobabbling than an atomic physicist has in building a
>dam or a bridge. To me astrology is the only possible core of any
>objective epistemological system.  Astrology is the only
>discipline that has the germ to transcend the limitations to human
>knowledge of reality impossed by time and space.  Astrology has
>nothing whatsoever to do with counseling your clients, because
>astrology is a pure science, and whatever use you make of it is
>but technological application of astrological knowledge, but not
>astrology itself. Blasting an atomic bomb is not nuclear physics,
>and the goal of nuclear physics is not making atomic bombs. 
>Similarly, anyone who believes that the goal of astrology is
>giving better readings to his clients is entirely missing the
>point. I give readings to my clients every day, and try to help
>them through my knowledge of astrology, but that's secondary when
>we are talking about the essence of astrology.

What, then, is the essence of astrology? Certainly I could agree with you that astrology is a tool and has a wider range of applicability than "just" giving better readings to clients but doesn't an astrologer who gives readings for clients have to be some sort of a counsellor as well? I mean you can't just say to a client "Well, I'm sorry to have to tell you this but your husband is going to die tomorrow, your son is going to become a crack dealer and next month you'll be told you've got breast cancer the day after you lose your job" and then show them to the door.

An "objective epistemology" is all very well but there seems to be no room for morality or sense of ethics in your universe. For all this eulogising of 'pure' science we need some morality or sense of ethics to guide its "technological application" or else we do get an atomic bomb whether that is the goal of nuclear physics or not. Knowledge for knowledge's sake is a very dangerous thing with often tragic consequences as the citizen's of the country I live in (Japan) can tell you.

Nor does there seem to be any room for growth, if our decisions are only "apparently free willed". Why bother studying if I'm told at age ten I'll be a doctor. If it's fated it'll just come to me.

Lastly, what is wrong with "the notion that astrology is basically a tool for spiritual growth and self knowledge as well as a symbolic language"?

Warmest Regards,

Neil Urquhart

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:59:07 PST
From: Aphrodette North
Subject: Re: Exegesis Digest V2 #8

Dear Neil,

Most of the clients that i deal with resent you asking them alot of questions..respond to me by saying "aren't you supposed to know !!!" Because of my personal chart - most of mu clients contact me when they are in crisis - and send my friends to me for the first time when they are in crisis... By the second or third update we may get to the level of comfort to start sorting out more esoteric issues.. :) :) :)

Most of my life, i have been involved with persons in crisis. Emergency Room and ICU health care, Hospice counseling and the like. The people that come to me for a "reading" are usually in a major transition - a deathing/birthing mode - to say the very least. It is in crisis that we often experience a LEAP in consciousness. It has been a great joy in my life to see many of my clients take this leap !!

Many of my clients are positive HIV or have major illness challenging them. Even though i left the medical field to pursue this path full time..these souls still migrate to me. It is wonderful to be able to take the time now to counsel and illuminate - and time is something not available to the the health care worker anymore. Now i am fortunate enough to help to heal from the inside - out !! :) :) There is much reflection and de-burdening that goes on with most of my client base.

The state of consciousness within the individual is not a static force or state of being. To determine this from the natal or even the transit chart, solar return or progressed chart - is not taking into account the major challenges met on the soul's journey. I know astrologers who actually try to "hide" from their squares !!!!!! I encourage others to meet the challenge of the square and grow. After all - isn't that what it is all about ? :) :)

So glad that we are of the same mind regarding practical lessons of life being manifest forms of growth of the soul/psyche !!! Clients often ask me - how do you know all THAT ??? My answer is : "As above, so below and within..Nothing here is separate but rather an expression happening on several levels simultaneously !"

May blessings crowd the path you walk upon and wisdon Light your way.. :)

Smiles, Aphrodette

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 09:25:43 -0600 (CST)
From: skyweasel
Subject: Re: Exegesis Digest V2 #7

> From: Matthew Wilson
> Subject: Re: Exegesis Digest V2 #4
> 
> increase daily and that was 1,500 years ago. The main problem
> seems to be the failure of our current tools: astrologers are
> attempting to predict using tools which over the years have got
> rusty or misunderstood - especially from mistranslations of the
> classical material (see Project Hindsight). Hence the reduction
> of predictive classical astrology (albeit with complexity) to
> vague psychological astrology. 

Are you saying that Hindsight is mistranslating the material they are working on? I don't subscribe to Hindsight, but I also don't believe, from what I've seen of their work, that they are promulgating "vague psychological astrology."

> The proof of this is in the pudding: how many Western Astrologers
> can do what good Jyotish are able to? - that is to tell you your
> date and time of birth just from looking at you and the palm of
> your hand.

None that I know of. But neither did the last jyotish I saw; he was very good but he didn't read my palm at all.

> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:51:11 -0600
> From: DR GONZALO PENA TAMEZ 
> Subject: On conception and the essence of astrology

> select this particular vehicle.  The soul, in its ignorance, may
> believe its is deciding whether to ensoul in this baby in this
> craddle, or hover over to another craddle to make up its mind.
> Actually it is only a matter of synastric resolution under a
> given transit matrix.

You seem to be saying the soul is ignorant, and its actions are governed by a cosmic matrix or mathematical construct of some sort.. am I reading you correctly?

> with a lathe, but how did you know that?!"...I said "Well,
> because you were born with the South Node of the Moon at 03=B050'
> Virgo (True Node) peri-partile conjunct the mid-point of a tight
> Sun/Mars square, in House 7, when the Sun rules your 7th". That
> didn`t mean much to her since she didn't know any astrology, yet
> to me it was very clear.  Because experience has shown me that
> the hands are signified on the ecliptic in the arc from 0=B0=
> to 5=B0 Gemini Virgo and from 25=B0 to 30=B0 Gemini and Virgo, while
> the best  key

Could you perhaps explain this notation-- 25=B0 ? It appears you are saying 25-30 degrees Virgo/Gemini in the example, but the =B0 part is unfamiliar to me.

> big locomotive engine. Decades later the atom is split and a
> locomotive engine is nothing.  Now they talk about the quark bomb
> that splits the virtual quarks in the quantum void and liberates
> unmaginable energies creating an unimaginable explosion that self
> propagates forever in all directions even in the void between
> galaxies. So I'd say the physicists are

Are they building one in New Mexico now? I would like a chance to call my mom and say goodbye before the universe gets blown up... seriously, where did you read about this?

> getting beyond limits now as far as relasing energy. I foresee we
> will see the end of life in this planet by the year 2013, when
> the Uranus/Pluto square that brought us World War 2 returns in
> heavens. Just like a few years

Is there more to that prediction than a single square aspect in the heavens? I suppose with Pluto in Capricorn, the destruction of the earth is possible.

> have made all the difference as far as expanding the limits of
> what is humanly possible as far as releasing energy, I am
> convinced that in a few years, when the egg of astrology hatches
> it will be obvious that the limits of quantitative knowledge of
> the future tend to infinity. Predicting fractal equations, like
> Terence McKenna's Time Wave Zero that predicts novelty in the
> world, or the Elliot Wave that predicts the fluctuations of any
> economic curve, are already a reality.  Soon astrology as we know
> it will be unrecognizable, because we are working on mighty
> mathematical ways to predict the future in quantitative terms and
> with great accuracy.

Time Wave Zero is interesting but the meaning of the actual zero event is subject to a lot of debate; join the TWZ mailing list if you can stand it. I couldn't. As for Elliot waves, theorists who fancy that approach have been yelling that the stock market sky is about to fall ever since the DJIA hit 3,000 and it's nearing 8,000 now. If I were to think anything, I would think that that every person who looks at cyclical patterns for predictive purposes probably invites the trickster into his/her life.

> > >Please define "astropsychobabbling". I'm not sure what you
> > >mean.  
> I call astropsychobabbler any practicioner who is unable to
> predict the future from the chart but nonetheless has come to
> master the lingo of astrology and blends it with psychological
> jargon to counsel his clients.

To what extent does a prediction of the future override the will of an individual to shape his/her future? I ought to invite Ed Wollmann here to debate you, this list will blow up faster than the universe with a lit quark bomb... :)

> The main characteristic of the astropsychobabbler is that he
> subscribes to the notion that astrology is basically a tool for
> spiritual growth and self knowledge as well as a symbolic
> language.  I have no more interest in

Maybe that's just one application out of many...

> astropsychobabbling than an atomic physicist has in building a
> dam or a bridge. To me astrology is the only possible core of any
> objective epistemological system.  Astrology is the only
> discipline that has the germ to transcend the limitations to
> human knowledge of reality impossed by time and space.  
> Astrology has nothing whatsoever to do with counseling your
> clients, because astrology is a pure science, and whatever use
> you make of it is but technological application of astrological
> knowledge, but not astrology itself. Blasting an atomic bomb is
> not nuclear physics, and the goal of nuclear physics is not
> making atomic bombs.  Similarly, anyone who believes that the
> goal of astrology is giving better readings to his clients is
> entirely missing the point. I give readings to my clients every
> day, and try to help them through my knowledge of astrology, but
> that's secondary when we are talking about the essence of
> astrology.

Do you readings tend to be purely predictive? You don't feel that astrology and psychology are a good mix; to some extent I concur. But what do you feel the chart has to say about the psychology of its subject?

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